对另一个地区不太了解很正常。
我会把自己的愚蠢作为一个教训，这样人们可以一笑置之，但随后表达担忧，因为我对法国（我的居住国）和美国（我的祖国）正在干预的地区深感无知：东部欧洲。
大约几年前，我在大学里有一位波兰同学，我们时不时地聊天。我不记得是什么引发了这次谈话，但有一次我们谈论波兰时，当她告诉我波兰人是斯拉夫人时，我表示困惑。我很震惊，我不知道。
我曾假设东欧有其版本的凯尔特人，斯拉夫人出现在乌克兰/俄罗斯并入侵。一些森林民族失去了，所以我们有了波斯尼亚、克罗地亚、罗马尼亚、塞尔维亚等斯拉夫国家。其他森林民族失去了他们的土地给土耳其人，所以我们有了保加利亚和匈牙利。而其他森林民族则在自卫，比如阿尔巴尼亚、捷克、波兰、斯洛伐克等。
几个月前我了解到罗马尼亚人不是斯拉夫人
得知波兰人是斯拉夫人让我摸不着头脑，因为我的问题是：
他们为什么讨厌俄罗斯？
在那次谈话之前，我以为波兰人只是怀恨在心，因为他们是“森林人”，但得知他们是斯拉夫人让我想知道为什么波兰总理没有在飞往莫斯科的航班上建议波兰加入俄罗斯联邦。
这听起来很愚蠢，但这就是阿拉伯联合共和国的成立方式。叙利亚总统舒克里·库瓦特利（Shukri al-Quwatli，1955-1958 年）前往开罗，请求埃及独裁者加梅尔·阿卜杜勒·纳赛尔（Gamel Abdel Nasser，1954-1970 年在位）吞并叙利亚。纳赛尔同意了两个条件：
- 库瓦特利总统失去了与纳赛尔共和国总统的联盟地位
- 复兴党创始人米歇尔·阿弗拉克同意解散其社会主义运动并退出政坛
总统库瓦特利（左）与纳赛尔（右）握手，沙特国王沙特站在中间
尽管这些条件令人感到屈辱，但两人都以阿拉伯团结的名义同意了，因此 1958 年，埃及和叙利亚成立了共和国。
所以我的问题是为什么斯拉夫世界没有看到类似的事情？想象一下斯洛伐克总统前往华沙并同意如果波兰吞并他的国家就退出政坛。即使是对俄罗斯的恐惧也应该看到同样的情况。
并非所有阿拉伯人都庆祝阿拉伯联合共和国的成立。伊拉克和约旦的君主国惊慌失措，因此纷纷组建自己的联盟——阿拉伯联邦，这个联盟一直持续到七月革命，伊拉克王室被叛乱军官屠杀。
因此，作为一个读阿拉伯历史的人，我想知道为什么捷克和斯洛伐克对俄罗斯入侵乌克兰的反应不是组建斯拉夫联邦。
我确信这有一系列原因
当东欧不是阿拉伯并且有不同的因素在起作用时，我试图利用我对阿拉伯历史的了解来了解东欧。我的无知当然没有任何帮助。
我可以通过拿起一些关于东欧的书籍来治愈我的无知，然后通过找到一些可靠的东欧新闻网站来定期阅读来增强我的知识。这样我对这个地区有了深刻的了解，但为什么呢？我不是东欧人，也不对该地区特别感兴趣。我们的时间有限，我认为没有理由投入大量时间来了解波兰。我更喜欢只询问那些投入时间研究该地区的人的想法。
我的观点是，不了解一个地区是正常的
当你有假专家时，这只是一个问题。我永远不会就乌克兰战争发表自己的看法，因为我的消息不够多，无法发表看法。我的意思是我对该地区有所了解。我是无知，但没那么无知。
- 我知道波兰曾被瓜分过
- 在英语中，我们说“捷克共和国” ，但现在有人提倡说“捷克共和国”
- 克罗地亚有一个被称为达尔马提亚的地区，该地区并非只有狗居住
- 我还知道匈牙利是奥匈帝国的一部分
然而，我确信大多数人都会同意我是最后一个询问该地区的未来、经济历史或政治的人。为我辩护，我的阅读清单中确实有一本塞尔维亚历史书。
我还知道一些花絮，比如这个“笑话”背后的黑历史。这么说吧，1995年克罗地亚对其塞尔维亚人做了一些事情。
好吧，但假设你是一个真正想了解阿拉伯世界的阿拉伯爱好者
- 首先，阅读通史。艾伯特·胡拉尼 (Albert Hourani) 的《阿拉伯人民史》是一个不错的选择。
- 其次，阅读一两本关于您最喜欢的阿拉伯国家（或多个国家）的历史书。
- 第三，阅读您最喜欢的阿拉伯国家（或多个国家）的专业历史。
- 第四，阅读当地媒体。
科威特的示例路径。
首先，阿尔伯特·胡拉尼（Albert Hourani）的《阿拉伯人民的历史》，以更好地了解科威特所处的环境。第二，迈克尔· S·凯西（Michael S. Casey）的《科威特的历史》，以更好地了解科威特的历史。三、专科病史，我推荐如下：
- 阿卜杜拉·穆巴拉克·萨巴赫：科威特的转变 作者：苏阿德·萨巴赫
穆巴拉克大帝于 1896 年夺取王位并统治至 1915 年。他在建立科威特目前的君主政体和国家形式方面发挥了巨大作用。
- 阿拉伯中东的混合主权：科威特、约旦和伊拉克的案例 作者：Gokhan Bacik
现在我们知道了科威特的历史，穆巴拉克所扮演的角色，并且由于我们对阿拉伯历史的一般了解，我们可以阅读巴吉克对国家合法性的分析以及科威特与伊拉克和约旦的比较。
现在对于科威特的经济和目前的结构，你有三个选择：
- 通过创新减少资源诅咒，造福所有人——科威特案例作者：Meshaal Jaber Al Ahmad Al Sabah
- 石油的工资：科威特和阿联酋的议会与经济发展作者：Michael Herb
- 科威特改变了石油和城市生活的历史 作者：Farah al-Nakib
萨巴赫的书讨论了石油对科威特经济的影响。赫伯的书比较了科威特政治如何使其走上与阿联酋不同的经济道路。纳基布的书讨论了石油如何改变科威特公民的生活。你可以像我一样读完三本，但正如我所说，时间有限，所以你只读一本就足够了。
最后，您可以收听科威特新闻了。
现在，您需要记事本来跟踪新闻文章中提到的人物和政客，因为维基百科和其他英语百科全书网站在阿拉伯世界方面存在重大漏洞。您会找到每位美国国会议员的传记，但只有一两本科威特议员的传记。
但请记住，这条道路可以帮助您了解科威特。不是整个阿拉伯世界。
你问斯拉夫世界是否也出现过类似的情况。当然，我们有一个类似的趋势，称为泛斯拉夫主义。与泛阿拉伯主义类似，它已成为过去。泛阿拉伯主义随着纳赛尔的消亡而消亡，泛斯拉夫主义是19世纪的事情。许多当代斯拉夫人甚至不知道这样的运动存在。它的历史。
就像每个家庭一样，无论是斯拉夫家庭还是阿拉伯家庭，一些成员之间互相争吵是很正常的。如果我们看看你的祖国摩洛哥，它与阿尔及利亚的关系并不是那么好。边境自 1994 年起关闭。阿尔及利亚最近中断了一条穿过摩洛哥至西班牙的天然气管道，摩洛哥免收过境费。等等。
出于好奇问，摩洛哥和阿尔及利亚为什么不和？阿尔及利亚曾经支持波利萨里奥，但冲突已基本解决。还有其他原因吗？
我认为这主要是因为西撒哈拉问题。本质上，阿尔及利亚援助和庇护了激怒摩洛哥的WS分离分子。
也就是说，只是政府之间存在矛盾。根据我观看 MA/AL 的 Youtube 视频，90% 的情况下，两国公民都将对方视为兄弟。虽然在讨论政治时......
也就是说，我既不是阿尔及利亚人也不是摩洛哥人，所以我需要那里的人来确认并进一步阐述。✌️
泛斯拉夫主义唯一获得“成功”的地区是南斯拉夫人或南斯拉夫人。成功是故意用引号引起来的，因为泛斯拉夫主义是南斯拉夫的意识形态，南斯拉夫是一个沸腾的锅，充满了可怕的民族统一主义、例外主义、超民族主义、浪漫主义历史昭示命运类型的意识形态，自南斯拉夫成立以来，这些意识形态就时不时地爆发（6.统治南斯拉夫王国的塞尔维亚人在一月份发出指令，克罗地亚局部叛乱催生了乌斯塔沙运动，该运动后来作为纳粹合作者上台，对塞尔维亚人和罗姆人进行了大屠杀和种族灭绝，捷克的捷克/别洛戈拉运动塞尔维亚，铁托军政府之间不断发生的争吵和背后捅刀的事件，如兰科维奇事件、1974 年克罗地亚之春和 90 年代的混乱。
泛斯拉夫主义已经死了，这是理所当然的。这是一种被误导的浪漫历史、非历史、不细致的废话，没有对相关人民的文化历史、人类学和民族志的欣赏。
我想是因为他认为波兰人是凯尔特人，而凯尔特文化有一种“与自然和谐相处的神秘仙女”的形象，这要归功于流行媒体对他们的描绘。
有趣的是，如果你在 Youtube 上搜索凯尔特音乐，你会发现它是这样的：
请务必阅读塞尔维亚历史书。但请不要就此止步。你最终可能会得到一种非常片面的观点。我们只能说，克罗地亚对其塞尔维亚人所做的令人厌恶的事情也许与以色列自 7.10 以来对加沙人民所做的令人厌恶的事情相似。而且，与后者一样，前者也不是无缘无故的，既不是直接引起的，也不是由数十年甚至数百年的背景引起的。引发它的事情比反应更令人讨厌，对于以色列人来说，就像7.10一样令人讨厌（武科瓦尔、奥夫卡拉、斯卡布尼亚、曼贾查、赫利奥德罗姆、杜布罗夫尼克......）
《塞尔维亚兰博斯》中描绘的那些特定人物是在武科瓦尔陷落时无情处决被俘伤员的人，还是对联合国教科文组织世界遗产地进行燃烧弹轰炸并摧毁了一些保存最完好的欧洲文艺复兴/早期现代历史围墙城市建筑的人（以及档案和博物馆藏品）？或者管理曼贾查和赫利奥德罗姆集中营并参与系统性的大规模强奸、酷刑、饥饿和处决？不，可能不会。但我的兄弟……好吧，我想安拉……就像选举和怂恿哈马斯的巴勒斯坦人一样——玩愚蠢的游戏，赢得愚蠢的奖品。如果在 7.10 的疯狂中，本·格维尔 (Ben Gvir) 崛起或掌权，或者在南斯拉夫解体的疯狂中（通过不断的挑衅，只是为了能够争论诸如是克罗地亚人、斯洛文尼亚人和波斯尼亚人实际上解散了这个国家（根据 1974 年宪法，他们拥有一切宪法权利）米洛舍维奇和 JNA 高层的口舌之争，戈伊科·苏沙克 (Gojko Šušak) 在对方一方上台。种族灭绝、种族清洗、文化灭绝、对大片领土上的民族志和文化人类学纤维的大规模抹杀，是铁石心肠的时代。既有实施这种行为的人，也有反对这种行为的人（而且经常针锋相对）。见风者，必收旋风。
我认为 90 年代的克罗地亚做了很多该死的事情，尤其是当我们将目光投向波斯尼亚和黑塞哥维那边境时，但这不是一夜之间发生的，也不是没有原因的，纯粹是出于对伟大邪恶的爱！塞尔维亚对几乎所有现在或历史上与他们共享边界的人所做的所有彻头彻尾的邪恶行为，就像哈利法塔建造了一座砖砌的茅屋一样，使它黯然失色。从地缘政治角度看，他们肩上的担子有阿特拉斯山那么大。
关于塞尔维亚等话题……巴尔干地区完全是它自己的事情。我读了几本这方面的书，但我仍然不完全理解过去两个世纪里边界和国家认同的变化、来回的种族清洗、种族灭绝、战争、大国干涉……的棘手问题……
专业提示永远不要在网上发布任何可能被误解为与巴尔干政治错综复杂的网络有关的内容。与发布与中东政治相关的内容相比，您会受到更多的攻击。不久前，我犯了一个错误，写了一篇关于 Utase 的答案，但我很快就了解到，这对很多人来说是一个多么激动人心的话题。
It’s normal to not understand another region well.
I’ll set my own folly as a lesson so people can have a laugh but then express concern as I’m deeply ignorant about a region that France (my country of residence) and the United States (my homeland) are intervening in: Eastern Europe.
About a couple years ago, I had a Polish classmate in university and we would talk every now and then. I don’t remember what sparked the conversation but once we were talking about Poland when I expressed confusion when she informed me that Poles were Slavs. I was floored, I had no idea.
I had assumed Eastern Europe had its version of the Celts and that the Slavs appeared in Ukraine/Russia and invaded. Some forest peoples lost so we have the Slavic countries of Bosnia, Croatia, Romania, Serbia etc. Other forest peoples lost their land to the Turks so we have Bulgaria and Hungary. While other forest peoples defended themselves and so we have Albania, Czechia, Poland, Slovakia etc.
I learned a few months ago that Romanians aren’t Slavs
Learning that Poles were Slavs left me scratching my head because my question then is:
Why do they hate Russia?
Until I had that conversation, I assumed the Poles were just nursing a grudge since they were “forest people” but learning they were Slavs made me wonder why the Polish Prime Minister isn’t on a flight to Moscow proposing Poland join the Russian Federation.
It sounds dumb but that’s how the United Arab Republic was founded. The President of Syria, Shukri al-Quwatli (1955-1958), went to Cairo and asked Egyptian dictator, Gamel Abdel Nasser (r. 1954-1970) to absorb his country. Nasser agreed under two conditions:
- President al-Quwatli lose his position in the union with Nasser as the President of the Republic
- Michel Aflaq, the founder of the Baathist Party, agree to dissolve his socialist movement and retire from politics
President al-Quwatli (left) shaking hands with Nasser (right) while King Saud of Saudi Arbaia stands in the middle
While these conditions were humiliating, both men agreed to it in the name of Arab unity and so in 1958, Egypt and Syria formed the Republic.
So my question is why hasn’t the Slavic World seen something similar? Imagine the President of Slovakia going to Warsaw and agreeing to retire from politics if Poland absorbs his country. Even fear of Russia should see the same.
Not every Arab celebrated the United Arab Republic’s formation. The monarchies in Iraq and Jordan panicked and so they rushed to form their own union, the Arab Federation which lasted until the July Revolution which saw the Iraqi royal family massacred by rebelling army officers.
So as somebody who reads Arab history, I’m left wondering why the reaction to the Russian invasion of Ukraine wasn’t Czechia and Slovakia forming the Slav Federation.
I’m sure there’s a set of reasons for this
I’m trying to understand Eastern Europe using my knowledge of Arab history when Eastern Europe isn’t Arab and has different factors in play. My ignorance is certainly no help.
I could cure my ignorance by picking up some books on Eastern Europe then bolstering my knowledge by finding some credible Eastern European news sites to read regularly. This way I have a profound understanding of the region but why? I’m not Eastern European or particularly interested in that region. We have a finite amount of time and I see no reason to invest a large chunk of mine into learning about Poland. I prefer just asking people who have invested their time in studying the region about their thoughts instead.
My point is that not understanding a region is fine and perfectly normal
It’s just a problem when you have false experts. I will never give my opinion on the Ukrainian war because I’m not informed enough to have one. I mean I know bits about the region. I’m ignorant but not that ignorant.
- I know there was a partition of Poland
- In English we say Czech Republic but there’s now a push to say Czechia
- Croatia has a region known as Dalmatia and it isn’t populated exclusively by dogs
- I also know that Hungary was part of Austria-Hungary
However, I’m sure most would agree I’m the last person to ask about the region’s future or economic history or politics. In my defense, I do have a Serbian history book in my reading list.
I also know tidbits, such as the dark history behind this “joke”. Let’s just say, Croatia did something to its Serbs in 1995.
Alright, but say you’re an Arabophile who really wants to know about the Arab World
- First, read a general history. A History Of The Arab Peoples by Albert Hourani is a great choice.
- Second, read a history book or two about your favorite Arab country (or countries).
- Third, read specialist histories on your favorite Arab country (or countries).
- Fourth, read local media.
Example path for Kuwait.
First, A History Of The Arab Peoples by Albert Hourani to better understand the environment Kuwait is in. Second, The History of Kuwait by Michael S. Casey to better understand Kuwait’s history. Third, specialist history, I recommend the following:
- Abdullah Mubarak Al-Sabah: The Transformation of Kuwait by Souad al-Sabah
Mubarak the Great seized the throne in 1896 and ruled until 1915. He played a massive role in establishing the current form of Kuwait’s monarchy and state.
- Hybrid Sovereignty in the Arab Middle East: The Cases of Kuwait, Jordan and Iraq by Gokhan Bacik
Now we know Kuwait’s history, the role Mubarak played and thanks to our general understanding of Arab history, we can read Bacik’s analysis of state legitimacy and how Kuwait compares to Iraq and Jordan.
Now for Kuwait’s economy and current structure, you have three choices:
- Resource Curse Reduction through Innovation, A Blessing for All - The Case of Kuwait by Meshaal Jaber Al Ahmad Al Sabah
- The Wages of Oil: Parliaments and Economic Development in Kuwait and the UAE by Michael Herb
- Kuwait Transformed A History of Oil and Urban Life by Farah al-Nakib
Al-Sabah’s book discusses the impact of oil on Kuwait’s economy. Herb’s book compares how Kuwaiti politics set it on a different economic path compared to the UAE. Al-Nakib’s book discusses how oil shaped life for Kuwaiti citizens. You could read all three like I did, but as I said time is limited, so you can read just one and it should be enough.
Finally, you’re ready for Kuwaiti news.
Now you’ll need your notepad and to track the figures and politicians brought up in news articles as Wikipedia and other English encyclopedia sites have major holes for the Arab World. You’ll find a biography for every American congressman but only one or two for Kuwaiti parliamentarians.
Remember though, this path helps you understand Kuwait. Not the entire Arab World.
I wish more people in Quora could back up their claims by citing their sources, instead of just making general assumptions based on their personal experiences. Too often I encounter posts that go, “I saw X person doing Y, therefore all X person must be Y-ists!” followed by a barrage of likes coming from people who hate X people.
Yes, that's true. Cats are all over the place in Dalmatian towns. ;)
You ask if the slavic world has seen something similar. Sure, we had a similar trend called Pan-Slavism. Similarly to Panarabism, it's a thing of the past. Panarabism died with Nasser, and Panslavism was a thing in the 19th century. Many contemporary Slavs don't even know that such a movement existed. It's history.
Like in every family, be it Slavic or Arabic, it's normal that some members are having beef with each other. If we look at your native Morocco, its relations with Algeria are not so great. The border is closed since 1994. Algeria recently discontinued a gas pipeline going through Morocco to Spain depriving Morocco of transit fees. And so on.
Asking out of curiosity, why are Morocco and Algeria having a feud? Algeria used to support Polisario, but that conflict is largely settled. Are there any other reasons?
I think it’s largely because of the Western Sahara issue. Essentially Algeria aided and sheltered the WS separatists which angered Morocco.
That said, it’s just the governments that have beef with each other. Based on me watching Youtube videos from MA/AL, 90% of the time both citizens see each other as brothers. Although when discussing politics…..
That said, I am neither Algerian or Moroccan, so I need someone from there to confirm and further elaborate. ✌️
I heard that too. Common Algerians and Moroccans get along very well, and their relative varieties of Arabic are quite similar to each other. The fact that both countries have a huge Tamazight population might also help.
The only region where Panslavism met with “success” was amidst the Southern Slavs or Jugo-Slavs. And success is intentionally in quotes because Panslavism was the ideology to blame for Jugoslavia, which was a boiling pot of simply horrible irredentist, exceptionalist, hypernationalistic, romantic-historic manifest destiny types of ideologies which flared sporradically ever since it was founded (the 6. January diktat by the Serbs running the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, the Croatian localized rebellions in response which birthed the Ustaše movement that later swept into power as Nazi collaborators, perpetrating the Holocaust as well as a genocide of Serbs and Roma, the Četnik/Bjelogora movement in Serbia, the constant bickering and backstabbing among Tito’s junta along national lines, e.g. the Ranković affair, the 1974 Croatian Spring, and the asshattery of the 90s).
Panslavism is as dead as a doornail and rightly so. It was a misguided romantic-historic ahistorical unnuanced bullshit without appreciation of cultural history, anthropology, and ethnography of the people in question.
“forest peoples”
What is that?
I think because he thought Poles were Celts, and the Celtic culture has an image of “mysterious fairies living in tune with nature” thanks to popular media portraying them as such.
Fun fact if you search Celtic music on Youtube, this is what it looks like:
“I prefer just asking people who have invested their time in studying the region about their thoughts instead”. This is the reason I enjoy your content so much.
By all means read that Serbian history book. But please don’t stop there. You might end up with a very one-sided view. Let’s just say the nasty thing Croatia did to its Serbs was perhaps similar to the nasty thing Israel has been doing to the Gazan population since 7.10. And, like the latter, the former wasn’t unprovoked, neither directly, nor by a multidecade, if not multicentennial context. The things that provoked it were nastier than the reaction, and as nasty as 7.10 was to the Israelis (Vukovar, Ovčara, Škabrnja, Manjača, Heliodrom, Dubrovnik…)
Were those specific people depicted on “Serbian lambos” the one that mercilessly executed captured wounded at the fall of Vukovar, or that firebombed a UNESCO World Heritage Site and destroyed some of the best-preserved European Renaissance / Early Modern History walled city architecture (and archives and museum pieces)? Or that ran the Manjača and Heliodrom concentration camps and engaged in systematic mass rape, torture, starvation, and execution? No probably not. But my brother in… well I guess Allah… like with the Palestinians who elected and abetted Hamas — play stupid games, win stupid prizes. And nobody should be surprised (not that it is a moral excuse of any sort) if amidst the lunacy of 7.10 a Ben Gvir comes to, or grows in power, or that amidst the lunacy of the dissolution of Yugoslavia perpetrated (by ceaseless provocation, just to be able to argue paltering technicalities like that it was the Croatians, Slovenians, and Bosnians who effectively disolved the country — which they had every constitutional right to do by the Constitution of 1974) by Milosevic and the top brass of the JNA, a Gojko Šušak comes to power on the opposing side. Genocide, ethnic cleansing, culturocide, wholesale erasure of the ethnographic and cultural-anthropological fibre of vast swathes of territory is a time for hard, psychopathic men. Both those who will perpetrate it, and those who will stand against it (and very often play tit for tat). He who saws the wind shall reap the whirlwind.
I think Croatia in the 90s did plenty of fucked up shit, especially if we cast our gaze across the border to Bosnia-Herzegovina, but that did not happen overnight or without a cause, and purely out of love FuR gReAt EvIlZ! And it is overshadowed as Burj Khalifa does a brick shithouse by all the outright evil shit that Serbia did to almost everybody who now, or has historically, shared a border with them. Geopolitically, they carry a chip on their shoulder the size of Mt. Atlas.
On the topic of Serbia, etc… The Balkans is it’s own thing altogether. I read several books on it and I still don’t fully understand the thorny knots of shifting borders and national identity, back and forth ethnic cleansing, genocide, wars, Great Power interference….for the last two centuries…
Pro-tip never post anything that could be misconstrued as related to the tangled web of Balkan’s politics online. You get more attacks than if you post something Middle East politics related. I made the mistake of writing an answer about the Utase a while back and learned really quickly what an emotional topic it is to many many
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