Gespräch mit Li Hung-Chang
俾斯麥 會面 李鴻章
以下是你提供的這篇文章（節錄自 Otto von Bismarck Stiftung 官方網站《Conversation with the Viceroy Li Hongzhang, Friedrichsruh, June 25, 1896》）的完整中文翻譯版本。
這份文件極具史料價值，是李鴻章與俾斯麥（Bismarck）1896 年在德國弗里德里希斯魯（Friedrichsruh）會晤的詳細紀錄。
俾斯麥與李鴻章會談記錄（弗里德里希斯魯，1896年6月25日）
俾斯麥強調，他已不再關心政治事務，如今只對田園與森林有興趣。這讓他回到了最初的心願，因為他原本想成為一名農夫，而不是政治家。根據他作為政治家的經驗，他指出：「無論規模多小，一支強大的軍隊，才是政府權威的根本保障。」
李鴻章到訪與初見
李鴻章總督於下午十二點四十八分抵達此地。火車到站前不久，比斯麥之子赫伯特伯爵與蘭措伯爵已前來迎接。兩位伯爵將賓客引入城堡，俾斯麥親自在門口迎接。他身著哈爾伯施塔特胸甲騎兵團的臨時軍服，佩戴紅鷹大十字勳章（飾以皇冠、權杖與劍）——這是一種極為特殊的榮譽。威廉一世皇帝曾將此勳章贈與自己及宰相俾斯麥，而俾斯麥每逢隆重場合必佩戴之。除此之外，他的制服上僅配有黑鷹勳章與鐵十字勳章。
李鴻章一見俾斯麥，立刻深深鞠躬，俾斯麥也回禮，熱情地與他握手，說道：
「能迎接閣下到訪，我深感榮幸。能在此見到貴國最著名、最偉大的政治家，使我倍感欣慰。」
初談與互致敬意
起初，兩人在接待室與翻譯待了許久。李鴻章帶著明顯的敬仰目光凝視俾斯麥，片刻後說：
「自從我第一次看到閣下的照片起，就明白您是當代最偉大的人物。今日終能親見其人，實乃榮幸。」
俾斯麥答道，他也很高興能見到同樣功績卓著的東方政治家。
李鴻章回說：
「但閣下的成就遠勝於我。」
俾斯麥微笑道：
「各人盡其本分而已。」
李鴻章回應：
「閣下之功績，不僅惠及貴國，更影響全世界。」
關於年老與農業
不久，他們被邀入席共進早餐。俾斯麥從低矮的扶手椅上起身時有些吃力，笑著說：
「人老了，果然不同了。」
但他隨即站直，神采依舊，姿勢挺拔，眼神仍閃爍著青春的光芒。當中國隨從上前欲攙扶主子時，俾斯麥親自上前，挽著李鴻章的手臂，一同步入餐廳。他坐在李鴻章與隨員羅豐祿之間。
李鴻章說：
「我早在三十年前（普奧戰爭之後）就希望能見到閣下，如今終得以如願。我曾看過許多您的畫像，但無一能及真實。」
俾斯麥謙虛地笑道：
「我已非往日之人，年事已高。」
李鴻章問他現今的生活。俾斯麥答：
「什麼都不做。凡事不關心，就不會惹自己煩惱。如今無官職在身，只願在夏日裡欣賞森林與田野。我本受農學訓練，本不想做政治家。」
談論改革與軍事
李鴻章隨後問起赫伯特伯爵，稱讚他多年主理外交事務的能力。俾斯麥笑說：
「他熱衷政治，與我不同，對農業沒什麼興趣。」
談話逐漸轉入嚴肅的政治議題。李鴻章說：
「我來訪是希望閣下能給我一些建議。」
「什麼樣的建議？」俾斯麥問。
「我們該如何改革中國？」
俾斯麥答：
「我在此地難以妄斷中國之事。不過，有一點可以肯定——若最高層缺乏政治智慧，什麼事都做不成；若有，則萬事可行。沒有哪個大臣能違抗君主的旨意，只能執行或建議而已。」
李鴻章歎道：
「若君主易受他人影響，臣下就無能為力。宮廷裡那些日常小事，消磨了我們的力量。」
俾斯麥苦笑：
「這在我們國家也一樣（Tout comme chez nous）。我當宰相時也常遇此事——尤其是女性方面的干預……」
李鴻章微笑說：
「閣下性格剛強，未必總是平和吧？」
俾斯麥笑道：
「對女士們倒是一直溫和的。」
李鴻章又問：
「那該如何實施君主的意志呢？」
俾斯麥答：
「唯有倚賴軍隊。即使小至五萬人，只要精良即可。」
李鴻章說：
「我國不缺人，但缺乏訓練。自太平天國之亂以來，已有三十年毫無軍事改革。我雖力圖革新，卻徒勞無功。如今我見識了世界上最優秀的軍隊——德軍。即使我已無舊日權力，也要推動改革。中國必須重組軍制，並聘請普魯士軍官，依普魯士模式訓練。」
俾斯麥回應：
「重點不在於軍隊的分布，而在於隨時能夠機動調動、迅速聯絡。」
談德國與中國關係
接著他們又談到德國內政與外交，俾斯麥讚揚侯恩洛厄親王，稱二人相交三十年：
「我們是老朋友。卡普里維只會執令如律令，而侯恩洛厄有獨立見解，行事謹慎而得體。」
他又提到：
「我一直關心中國，早在1884年就與中國的清侯（馬格里子·慶親王）在基辛根談過促進兩國關係的事。」
之後俾斯麥轉向德廷（Detring）詢問他在中國的經歷與對德國未來的看法。德廷答稱：
「德國在華關係進展顯著，這要歸功於駐華領事塞肯多夫男爵的努力。」
李鴻章也關切俾斯麥的健康，問他睡眠如何。俾斯麥說：
「不常好，常失眠。」
德廷說李鴻章也有面部神經痛。俾斯麥笑答：
「我不太怕疼，倒怕失眠。早上若能多睡一會兒，一天都舒服。不過疼痛仍常來。」
李鴻章問：「施文寧醫生無法治嗎？」
俾斯麥打趣地瞥了醫生一眼：「哦，他能治，但副作用比疼痛更糟。」
告別
早餐後，氣氛轉為輕鬆。畫家克拉納赫忙著素描與拍照。俾斯麥與他開玩笑說：
「大名伴隨大責任。」
兩人之後一同走到露台。這位東西方政治巨人並肩談話，場面令人動容。李鴻章身形高大，氣度莊重，似乎依依不捨。他問俾斯麥：
「閣下仍散步嗎？」
俾斯麥答：
「我的散步範圍一年比一年小。」
李鴻章說：
「應多活動，保持健康。」
俾斯麥的醫師施文寧插話：「請把這話再說兩遍！」
李鴻章歎道：
「我事業未竟，障礙重重。」
俾斯麥勉勵他：
「您太謙虛了。政治家最大的危險是過度自信，而非謙遜。」
李鴻章答：
「閣下功業非凡，定能無憾回首一生。」
俾斯麥道：
「無論在中國或德國，都印證希臘諺語：‘萬物流轉，終將崩塌。’（Τὰ πάντα ῥεῖ）」
兩人凝視片刻，握手告別。李鴻章說：
「願我能在閣下九十壽辰時，再致賀詞。」
當火車緩緩開動，俾斯麥筆直站立，手扶帽沿行禮；李鴻章立於車窗，連連作揖，雙手合於胸前，以中國傳統禮節致意，目送俾斯麥直到視線盡頭。
📚 來源：
Otto von Bismarck Stiftung 官方網站
《Conversation with the Viceroy Li Hongzhang, Friedrichsruh, June 25, 1896》
（https://www.bismarck-biografie.de/en/quellen/politische-kommunikation/860-gespraech-mit-li-hongzhang-1896）
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Bismarck online biography
Conversation with the Viceroy Li Hongzhang, Friedrichsruh
June 25, 1896
Bismarck emphasises that he no longer cares about political business. He was only interested in the fields and the forest. This brought him back to his beginnings, as he had originally wanted to become a farmer and not a politician. From his experience as a politician, a powerful army, no matter how small, is the guarantee for the authority of a government.
Viceroy Li-Hung-Chang arrived here with his entourage at twelve minutes to one o'clock. Shortly before the train arrived, Count Herbert Bismarck and Count Rantzau had arrived to receive him. The two counts led the guests into the castle, where Prince Bismarck met those entering. He wore the interim uniform of his Halberstadt cuirassiers with the Grand Cross of the Red Eagle Order with crown, scepter and sword, which is known to be unique. Emperor William I had lent it to himself and his chancellor, who now always wears it on particularly solemn occasions. In addition, the uniform was decorated only with the Star of the Black Eagle and the Iron Cross. Li-Hung-Chang bowed deeply when he caught sight of Prince Bismarck, who returned the bow, shook his guest's hand warmly and said: "I feel very honored that the viceroy pays me his visit; it gives me great pleasure to see here the most famous and greatest statesman of your country.”
At first, Prince Bismarck and the Viceroy lingered in the reception room with the interpreter for a long time. The viceroy's eyes lingered on the prince with openly displayed admiration, and after a time he said: "Ever since I saw your Highness's eye, I have become fully aware of your greatness, although I knew that I was the tallest man today would see who has achieved the greatest successes.” Prince Bismarck replied that he was pleased to welcome a contemporary in the viceroy who also had great successes. "But not nearly as important as Your Highness," chimed in Li-Hung-Chang. "Well, each does his duty," said the prince. "Well done in the country," replied the viceroy; "but the successes your Highness has won are not just for your own country, they are for the whole world."
Soon after, they were invited to breakfast. Prince Bismarck found it difficult to get up from the low armchair on which he had been sitting, so that he remarked aloud: "One notices that one is getting old," but a jerk and the prince stood upright, as one is used to seeing. Prince Bismarck makes a very excellent impression. The posture is straight and proud as ever, and the eyes still shine with youthful freshness. The Chinese servants approached to lead their master in the usual manner; but Prince Bismarck intervened and offered his guest his arm to lead him into the dining-room himself. Here the prince took a seat between the viceroy and the embassy secretary Lo-Feng-Luh.
The viceroy explained to the prince that he had wanted to see him for thirty years, when he had first heard of him after the Austrian war; today finally brought the fulfillment of this wish. He had already seen many of the prince's pictures and had great expectations; but no image reaches reality. Prince Bismarck tried to refuse the expression of admiration paid to him by saying: "I'm not like I used to be; I'm getting old.” The viceroy then asked what the prince was doing. "With nothing," he replied, smiling. "I don't care about anything anymore so as not to annoy myself. I no longer have any obligation to work and am happy about the forest and the fields now in summer. I am a farmer by training and didn't want to become a politician at all."
The viceroy then inquired about Count Herbert Bismarck, for whose many years of leadership as State Secretary of the Foreign Office he expressed great appreciation. "He always wants to be involved in politics," explained the prince, "and, unlike me, has little passion for agriculture." This is generally the case here with us too," answered the prince, "but you can't go against nature."
The conversation then turned to serious political questions of the recent past. As it continued, Li-Hung-Tschang explained: "I was so pleased about my visit because I hoped you would give me some advice." "And what advice is that?" asked the prince. "How should we go about reforming China?" "I cannot judge that from here," replied Prince Bismarck. Li-Hung-Tschang: "How can I be successful when everyone at home, government and country, is causing difficulties and constantly hindering me!" "You cannot go against the court," replied Prince Bismarck. The main thing is: if there is rocket science in the top management, then many things can be done; if there is none, then nothing can be done. No minister can rebel against the will of the rulers; he only carries out his will or gives his advice." Li-Hung-Tschang: "But what if the monarch is open to all other influences and these always prevail? It is the small daily difficulties at court that sap the ministers' strength." Prince Bismarck: "Tout comme chez nous (Just like with us). I have experienced this many times in my service, even from the female side..." The Viceroy said with a smile: "But you also have a penetrating temperament, should it always have been peaceful?" Prince: "Well, always with ladies." "But how should one begin to carry out the prince's will?" asked the Viceroy. "Only on the basis of an army," explained the prince. "It can be small, very small, perhaps only fifty thousand men; but it must be good." "We have the men," replied Li-Hung-Tschang, "but the training is lacking. Since the Tei-Ping rebellion, which re-established the current dynasty, that is, for thirty years, nothing has been done in terms of training; I have fought against the stagnation, but in vain. I have now seen the most excellent army in the world, the German one. Even if I myself can no longer use the resources of my own that were at my disposal as Viceroy, I will nevertheless work to ensure that what your Highness advises me to do happens. We must reorganize, and we must do so with Prussian officers and according to the Prussian model." "It is not important," continued the Prince, "that the armies are distributed throughout the country. It is only necessary that the army be at hand at all times and that connections be created so that the army can be moved quickly and easily from one point to another."
The conversation now turned again to German questions; events of the Reich's internal and external politics were discussed, with Prince Bismarck speaking with appreciation of the Prince of Hohenlohe, with whom he had been bound by ties of friendship for thirty years. "We are old friends!" said the prince. “Caprivi was even more one of those who say: It is ordered, therefore it is done. Hohenlohe has an independent opinion on this, which he represents with caution and skill.” In the course of these discussions, the prince also remarked that he had always been interested in China and had endeavored to establish closer ties with that country. In 1884 he had already negotiated this with the Marquis Tsing in Kissingen.
Prince Bismarck then turned to the embassy counsellor Detring, who was sitting opposite him, and asked him how long he had been in China and what he thought of Germany's future in China. Mr. Detring stated that German relations in China had already made very significant progress, which was in large part thanks to the efforts of the imperial consul, Baron von Seckendorff. The prince then brought this gentleman into the conversation. The viceroy was very sympathetic to the prince's state of health and asked him whether he was sleeping well. Prince Bismarck replied: Not often, he often lacks the necessary night's rest.
Herr Detring said that the viceroy also suffered from facial pain, to which the prince remarked: “It is not so much the pain that I suffer from as the lack of sleep at night. The longer I can sleep in the morning, the better the whole day is for me. But the pain comes frequently” Li-Hung-Tschang: “But does Mr. Schweninger not know how to counteract it?” “Oh yes, but it's worse than the pain itself...” said the prince with a joking sideways glance at his trusted personal physician.
Then the prince spoke to Herr Detring about his father. “I remember him very well; he was a primary when I was a secondary,” he said. In the meantime breakfast was over and the conversation took on more informal forms after the prince had asked for the pipe to be handed to him. The painter Herr von Cranach, who was present, eagerly used the time for sketching and for taking photographs with his apparatus. The prince had spoken to him as he greeted them, reminding him that big names came with big obligations. The prince noticed a black and white ribbon on the captain's coat. "You couldn't have acquired that in France, Herr Hauptmann?" he addressed him, "you're too young for that." Fights in Cameroon." "Oh, Cameroon!" said Prince Bismarck, "I'm glad to see an African with me..."
The company then went out onto the terrace. It was an interesting sight to see the two statesmen talking to each other. The Viceroy is also a stately and in his way venerable figure. It was clearly difficult for him to part from Prince Bismarck. He asked how the Prince was walking. "The radius of my walks," replied the latter, "gets smaller every year." "And why doesn't Your Highness go?" inquired the Viceroy, who is known to use a wheelchair. "You have to get exercise," said the Prince. "It is necessary for the body; you have to walk as long as you can." Li-Hung-Tschang: "Take care to maintain your health." "Please repeat that twice," interjected Schweninger, who was standing nearby.
"I have achieved nothing and can do little more in view of the obstacles I find," continued the Viceroy. "You underestimate yourself," said the Prince. "Modesty is indeed a very good quality for a statesman. Politicians must most of all guard against too much self-confidence." Li-Hung-Tschang: "Your Highness has had great success in this way and will look back on your life with satisfaction." "Here and in China," said the Prince, "the Greek saying applies: Tα παυτα ρετ; everything flows, everything collapses at some point." The two statesmen looked seriously into each other's eyes for a moment. They exchanged a few more words and then Li-Hung-Tschang took his leave, saying: "I hope to be able to congratulate your Serene Highness on his ninetieth birthday." Prince Bismarck and the Viceroy walked together to the saloon car, and there they shook hands once more. As the train slowly began to move, Prince Bismarck stood erect, his hand on his cap, while Li-Hung-Tschang stood at the open window and gracefully performed the Chinese farewell greeting. There was something touching about the way he repeatedly brought his hands together in front of his chest in a gesture of blessing, while keeping his eyes on Prince Bismarck as long as he could see him.
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