美國普通話(1954-1963);吳庭練訪談

 


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越南:電視史;美國普通話(1954-1963);吳庭練訪談

https://openvault.wgbh.org/catalog/V_FF5BADFE44A0417BAA2F1F9C6F206209

越南收藏的 一部分。


1979 年 1 月 31 日


Ngo Dinh Diem 的兄弟 Ngo Dinh Luyen 被任命為駐英國大使。Ngo Dinh Luyen 講述了 Bao Dai 為什麼選擇 Ngo Dinh Diem 擔任南越第一任總統。Ngo Dinh Luyen 描述了 1954 年 8 月左右由於共產黨軍隊的推進而在南越造成的恐慌。他談到了美國對越南的政治,雖然它是出於善意,但一開始,美國並沒有做任何與法國不同的事情。Ngo Dinh Luyen 還談到了 1963 年的政變,他不知道誰應對此負責,但暗示可能是美國人幫助了他。



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系列

越南:一部電視史

程序

美國普通話 (1954 - 1963)

節目編號

103


標題

吳庭練訪談

面試官:

鹿宴先生,第一個問題就是寶黛為什麼選擇你弟弟,又是如何選擇他的問題。

Ngo Dinh Luyen:

是的,要回答,有幾個……必須記住幾個事件才能使答案易於理解。好的。要知道,寶黛是需要有權勢的人。寶黛不再授權了吧。那個時代的越南需要的是對越南、對越南人民有權威的人。

好吧,在所有曾經被法國殖民的國家中,法國的政策(因為法國希望同化)從非常自由的思想開始,如果你願意,對吧?但這導致了這樣的結果,即在法國統治、保護或殖民的任何國家,都沒有任何人物容易受到……準備,如果你願意,在允許他的影響可以延伸到……的情況下。 .over his people, over the nation...over the country itself. 正確的。他們自己的國家。因此,結果,是的,這就是當時的情況 [聽不清]。

寶黛之所以選擇我哥,其中一個原因就是我哥出身特殊。這意味著他非常年輕,對吧,三十二歲,就在越南全國范圍內廣為人知。一個非常有利的情況,因為他被其中一個委員會[聽不清]認識,對,因為他在越南獲得了一個非常重要的職位。這就是這個事實,對,如果你願意的話,還有我的家庭總是非常穩固的事實;我父親已經辭職了,因為他們推翻了清泰皇帝,對吧。

而且,如果你願意的話,在那之後,他的一個兒子——還很年輕,而且已經達到了,如果你願意的話,他的職業生涯達到了頂峰——六個月後就辭職了,對吧。而已。正是這種情況,決定了我哥的權威是突然被發現的,如果你願意的話,他的影響力是突然在全國范圍內建立起來的。所有的越南人都對這種不尋常的情況感到震驚,對吧:一個放棄一切的年輕人。所以,這就是寶黛,對,選擇讓他回到越南,他不想回來的原因。

他離開了……他在 52 年、53 年去了歐洲,對,他不想回到越南。正確的。所以他也不想離開他所有的潛在利益:他的王位,他的王朝,以及一切,對吧?因此,他希望有一個有利的替代品。正確的。好的。他本可以指定其他任何人的名字,但其他人沒有權力做任何事情,因為他們本來擁有的那一點權力……[聽不清。] 寶黛已經沒有了;他失去了所有的權威。所以,就是這樣,如果你願意,對吧,寶黛選擇了我的兄弟。換他,對。並以某種方式為他保留位置。

因為我是,我正中了寶黛的花招。因為事實上他不僅選擇了我的兄弟,對吧,還因為他在寶黛在越南有效統治的初期就辭職了。他知道,他和我哥哥之間的關係不是很好。正確的?所以有必要找人牽線搭橋,因為我十二歲的時候就被送到了法國,對吧,機緣巧合下我有...那個在法國照顧我的人也是他的導師,照顧他的人,照顧寶黛,指導,如果你願意的話,他的學習,他的生活。是老導師查爾斯將軍,對吧,來自印度支那。好的。

這很好,因為他比我大九個月,在十二歲的時候,你看這是一個不管發生什麼事情仍然放鬆,非常年輕,完全直接的年齡。所以,我們在假期裡一起度過了幾年,這讓他和我之間建立了非常牢固的聯繫,對吧。因此,正是這種兒時的友誼決定了他來找我,試圖讓我的兄弟(如果你願意的話)接受。所以……到……總理的位置,並在越南接替他。

面試官:

切。它太長了。

面試官:

我們問的是寶黛為什麼選擇你弟弟,他是怎麼選擇他的。

Ngo Dinh Luyen:

寶黛選擇了我哥,因為他發現我哥,也許不僅僅是因為他的個人功績,還因為他已經在全國范圍內廣為人知的情況。雖然在越南沒有其他人有這樣的運氣。所以。

還有我哥……因為我哥,才三十二歲就被徵召到越南政府最高級別的,對吧,六個月就辭職了,對吧,這樣……好。現在,寶黛做出了選擇,但是真正安排好的時候,如果你願意的話,他和寶黛在53年和54年就接觸過了,對吧。寶黛利用我,對吧,因為我們小時候在法國一起過,我們一起度過了幾個假期,因為他的導師也是我的。他也很照顧我。

於是,寶黛又通過我與我哥取得了聯繫,因為我哥的離職讓他們之間的關係有些緊張。事情就是這樣安排的,對吧,在53 年底,54 年初。

面試官:

我們不會隨時削減。

Ngo Dinh Luyen:

你要再問這個問題嗎?不?

面試官:

不。

Ngo Dinh Luyen:

最簡單的說說越南的情況,大概就是說說我第一次回越南的感受吧。那是1954 年 8 月的尾聲。因此,在我哥哥重新掌權一個半月後,我到達西貢,發現我哥哥不能指望他的民政部門,因為每個人都非常恐慌,完全相信末日臨近,進步,共產黨很快就會被征服。

以至於管理員們無心工作,大家都在琢磨怎麼逃出這個馬蜂窩。從軍事角度看,很簡單:這支軍隊聽命於一位公然造反的法國籍將軍。我在西貢度過的第一個晚上在他的宮殿裡,這是常有的事,但我還是第一次聽到……整個晚上,指揮車和機槍車以及軍隊,裝甲車同時在政府的宮殿周圍行駛用擴音器以及軍隊廣播電台廣播一場運動,以及所有反政府口號。

所以軍隊公開造反,不僅公開而且炫耀,你看,很好。我在說什麼呢?我們一分錢也沒有。財政部空空如也,幾個月後法國重新開放兌換處——也就是說,外匯——屬於各國的外幣,資產負債表不只是零,甚至不是正的,因為有一個漏洞來自法國政府的數十億法郎外幣...

Ngo Dinh Luyen:

也是在這個時候,難民們正在重新安置——我的意思是重新安置;因為我們無法保證在處女地安裝它們的安全性。因此與此同時,在西貢-喬隆 地區,約有 100,000 名難民被臨時安置在更遠的無人居住區,但仍在西貢郊區。

所有這些人都在那裡......然後他們無法工作,他們沒有土地可耕種,所以正是這些人在他們自己之間尋找他們的朋友的混合體,造成了這樣的混亂,這如果你說謊的話,當然對西貢的士氣沒有幫助的公民。每個人都處於這種無政府狀態、恐懼、擔憂中,當然還有軍隊的公開叛亂,所有這些收音機,這些擴音器在城市中無處不在,軍隊、軍隊的批評者、反對武裝的人、政府首腦– 這些都無濟於事。

Ngo Dinh Luyen:

這是一個相當有趣的例子,或幾個:我記得當我的兄弟根據日內瓦協議為新的國際刑事法院舉行招待會時。並邀請了叛軍將軍Hinh將軍。在介紹他的那一刻,我還記得當他們說“親愛的將軍,讓我介紹一下我們的叛軍將軍”時印度將軍的表情。是欣。這很有趣,對吧。令人驚訝,但同時注意到與眾不同,因為每個人都知道這一點。只是我做了介紹。

我將舉另一個例子,不僅可以說明混亂,還可以說明我兄弟必須找到一種不使混亂惡化的方法的困難。因為在他們的指揮官,國家元帥Hinh少將叛亂之前, 他手下的越南軍官就開始叛亂了。我記得有一個營前往地下,宣稱他們不是在反抗他們的指揮官,而是在支持他們的政府。好吧,這是一件奇怪的事情。

所以我哥哥不得不問我,因為這是我認識的一位軍官,他來法國讀軍官學校時就認識了——當時他叫Huynh司令。所以,我哥哥認識我,他說,“去他的藏身處,告訴他向Hinh投降,”因為他必須舉個例子。既然不是上級以身作則,而是下屬必須以身作則,讓自己的將軍投降。

Ngo Dinh Luyen:

所以我哥哥告訴我,我絕對必須離開,“首先,因為你有時間而我沒有,其次,你認識他,有人必須離開。” 於是我去找黃​​司令。這是史詩般的,因為他無法理解——我明白為什麼——總統是如何為了誰、因為誰、支持誰而叛逆的。而現在要他投降的,正是這位會長!但你可以看到事情並沒有那麼簡單。

無論如何,如果你願意的話,這讓人們相信越南已經淪陷了。他甚至可以說我自己的“vennu” [無法理解] 誰都知道他是多麼愛國和反共,以及他想要的一切,所以連他都認為它丟失了。就這樣,當他得知我哥接受了寶黛代表團的提議,以完全的文職權力回國時。

我哥寫的,對,那個儒家信仰,對,從弟弟到哥哥;用非常嚴厲的措辭寫信給他說那是最後要做的事。由於他的信念不僅是所有越南人民,而且是所有相關政府——無論是法國政府、美國政府等都絕對相信,我認為即使是由於這些普遍的信念,事情也無法得到更糟。也正是因為如此,我哥才得以扭轉局面。

Ngo Dinh Luyen:

因此,一方面我們有公開叛亂的軍隊,另一方面警察落入了海盜手中。很簡單,平川縣,對吧。因此,平川人在 西貢地區建立了整個妓院區。真是太奢侈了。

我還是不明白寶黛為什麼要容忍平川人給他們警察,不僅如此——先是法國政府,然後美國政府不僅不讓我們做任何剝奪警察權利的事情從這些Binh Xuyen海盜手中,但恰恰相反,我們給了他們的首領 Bay Vien 內政部長的職位。太不可思議了。就好像在美國有人要求白宮任命阿爾卡彭為所有警察的首領,甚至是內政部長,然後讓他的副手負責秩序和安全,而不僅僅是在芝加哥,但在每個美國城市。就在那個訂單上。

而且,這些事情不僅是通過討論,而且是通過書面形式完成的。好吧,我記得有一天我哥哥真的很喜歡從不同的人那裡得到關於各種問題的建議。所以他……我在他的辦公室,他正在談論人際關係,突然他對我說,“你去吧,因為我必須去見好姐妹們。” 我不明白。我很清楚,他是一個慈善家,他是一個好基督徒,但畢竟,接待修女,那是完全聞所未聞的。我問他為什麼。他說,“不,是法國”

我說,你為什麼叫她們好姐妹?“好吧,這很明顯。他們所做的一切,他們兩個,都是推動 Bay Vien 擔任內政部長。為了表明他們完全同意,法國人和美國人不僅給我寫了相同的文本——一個是法語的,一個用英語——但他們後來來給我口頭確認,不是一個接一個,而是一起,就像我們的修女一樣,除了巴黎外從不外出;這很令人驚訝,但我稱她們為好姐妹。” 這就是情況,看,這很有趣——越南的政治。

Ngo Dinh Luyen:

美國的政治已經發生變化,隨著美國對越南和我兄弟政權的生存能力的看法不斷變化而演變。一開始,美國人和大家一樣,認為越南局勢沒有前途;結束了。結果是與越南政府的關係,儘管是出於善意。

正如我們所見,美國遵循與法國完全相同的政治路線,看,好姐妹的故事。美國的援助大部分是人道主義援助——一種悔恨,一種同情,說,“這些可憐的人,我們不能為他們做任何事。” 最後,不幸的是。

情況太糟糕了,這解釋了為什麼只有法國人有某種政治方式。他們不想擾亂這種政治,因為他們看不到以不同方式做事的未來。隨著戰敗,宗派被打垮,凡是參與這種法國體制組織的部落主義的人,此時的戰敗已經是響亮的了。

美國已經開始指責他們的觀點,甚至沒有說也許,並且有一點很大的希望,在這樣的情況下我們也許可以提供幫助,實際上我們已經通過商業援助幫助我們的政府派遣了專家代表團、警察、行政機關為國家。所以他們會從密歇根州立大學派出很多專家,我們欣然接受了。最後從軍事角度...

Ngo Dinh Luyen:

然後成功自然地加強了美國的合作,越來越多的援助——行政、軍事和許多顧問,越來越多的專家來到越南。困難的部分並不在於普遍持有的觀點——每個人都想擺脫越南,幫助他們反對共產黨的控制。只有助手的困難,事實上,美國人更多地看到......從軍事的角度來看,他們主要看到裝飾品的重要性,以及使用它們的方式,而對於越南人,我們更多地關注什麼可以激勵使用步槍的人。

自然地,我們絕對相信美國人教我們的人如何使用他們的武器是正確的,但是當這種武器的使用導致戰鬥編隊和作戰方法越來越不符合游擊戰爭的條件時,這就開始了第一次困難,第一次分歧。

從另一方面,從公民的角度來看,從公民的角度來看,美國人認為建立人民士氣的最好方法是帶來……就像他們所說的那樣,製造一扇窗戶,就像商店櫥窗一樣,成千上萬大量採購和更好的存貨,更加誘人,人們會有理由,很多理由想要生活。所以做我們所做的。這實際上不是給人們一個死亡的願望,而是給他們冒生命危險的願望,如果他們想把這個國家從共產主義中解放出來,那就是代價。

正是通過這種方式,[聽不清]......一如既往,有人認為有必要為美國助手提供理由,而且美國人認為有理由聘請商業助手的同行負責人,這就是說帶來回報的貨幣,他們不放這個貨幣,他們自己說服了才放貨。因此,如果你願意的話,我們所有的計劃、任何行動都必須越來越多地涉及美國人認為不可或缺的東西。

我認為,這就是成功的[不可理解],因為人們錯誤地估計了重要性,忽視了可能的效率。在美國人希望未來不會那麼黑暗的那一天,我們的雙手更加自由。從那一刻起,美國人變得越來越感興趣。他們應用了自己的願景,如果你願意的話,關於如何重新獲得國家,如何重新獲得輿論。還有例子,如果你願意的話,例如……

Ngo Dinh Luyen:

不,沒有例子,因為那...

Ngo Dinh Luyen:

是的,但最終我們與北方的共產黨當局有了一些接觸。自然地,我們將其保密,以免對我們部隊的士氣產生不利影響,因為誰想成為停戰前最後一個被殺的人。如果我們試圖宣傳它,自然沒有人願意戰鬥。所以沒有人能夠以同樣的精神戰鬥。

但很明顯,當一個人發動戰爭時,是因為尋求和平,而當一個人發動戰爭以獲得和平時,有必要在戰爭期間的任何時候都與他有最好的聯繫,我的意思是,最確定的聯繫敵人。那是因為戰爭,就像和平是什麼的結果?對每一方的不滿或滿意,或多或少是可以接受的。

有必要進行這些接觸,以便一方和另一方都能更好地理解對方認為什麼水平是合理的。只有這樣,才能達到和平。我不明白人們怎麼會有這樣的幻想,即兩支軍隊或兩個軍隊聯盟可以戰鬥,同時拒絕與對手進行任何接觸,而不是為了戰爭而戰爭,因為這是一場永無止境的戰爭的唯一途徑,拒絕與你的對手接觸。

當然,我們不僅在談論了解而且不讓他知道你們的相互立場是什麼,因此,這兩個機構的政治試圖在什麼時候看到相互滿足或相互滿足的平衡可能會引起不滿,只有此時此刻,和平進程才能啟動。

面試官:

那麼此時北方的立場是什麼?

Ngo Dinh Luyen:

如果你願意的話,我並沒有準確地了解談判者的進展,但完美的是,這兩方已經開始估計對方的立場,其他人的立場。共產黨確信我們水果中的蟲子是美國人,結果他們調查了[不可理解],但這是一個聲明[不可理解],不僅因為沒有美國人我們會不那麼強大,當然他們沒有忘記這一點。

但我認為,如果你願意,在這種發自內心的恐懼中有一些真實的東西,如果你願意的話,對吧。接近美國人與我們的友誼的存在對他們來說可能代表著可怕的事情。而且你必須設法讓他們也明白另一面,我們害怕的是他們的方法,以及它可能對我們人民的生活和我們國家的未來產生的影響,共產主義及其所有國際從一側到另一側的應用程序。

因此,如果你願意的話,在尋求越南化方面有某種共同的方式,這與尼克松先生提供的方式完全不同,但在雙方的意義上,如果外國影響可以在不觸及美國的情況下逐漸減弱的話阻力。

面試官:

誰應對政變負責?

Ngo Dinh Luyen:

不可能給出名字,首先是因為我不在場,即使在場,也很難找出個人責任。有一件事是肯定的,那就是一切都是通過美國及其政府提供的手段完成的。很明顯,如果真正的將軍們自己有實力,有能力,而沒有牽連到美國的真正可能性,那麼他們之後的數字會好得多,也就是說,如果他們有權力推翻政府 [無法理解] 而不是 [無法理解] 大屠殺。

對於即將發生的事情,至少會有最低限度的凝聚力和力量。除了我們看到了什麼?我們看到每一張嘴,一張張將軍像木偶一樣起起落落,對,很好。如果你願意的話,這是沒有自主權的證明。美國人是政變、武力和處決的源頭,因為如果他們有能力……推翻一個政府,他們至少有能力在他們之間支持它,因為主要力量,這是凝聚力,但如果我們只談論幾位將軍。

但這些將軍有足夠的凝聚力,至少可以推翻一個正在執政的政府。然後他們無法保持最起碼的凝聚力。[無法理解] 但要在政府中持續下去。我不是在談論創造任何特別的東西,而是簡單地存在。事實上,他們沒有能力擤自己的鼻子。因此,他們一無所有。

Ngo Dinh Luyen:

我的家庭,家庭教育。它是一種混合物。一方面,我的家人被社會秩序、儒家思想所吸引——我們是儒家。同時,我們是天主教徒,因為我們被這種正義、人人平等的理念所吸引,如果你願意的話,這似乎是一種相當驚人的混合體,但事實上,我們似乎非常滿意,一個抵消了另一個。我們就是在這種氛圍中長大的。

我的哥哥Khoi和他唯一的兒子在45年 9 月被共產黨活埋。然後我的兄弟,Thuc,後來成為主教,大主教,在很小的時候就得到了宗教聖召。他大約八歲離開家人,進入小神學院,然後在羅馬等地學習。很好。他對任何政治主張都徹底退避三舍,不讓自己去想。太糟糕了,但事情就是這樣。所以他沒有扮演,參與任何角色,如果你願意,對,在這些年的越南政治中'54 到 63吸收了家庭的其他成員。

我的弟弟吳庭艷,在他很小的時候,也想信仰宗教,但這並沒有持續太久,因為他覺得自己內心有一些非常強烈的東西,阻止他完全屈從於一種紀律,一種宗教紀律。因為他有另一種天職,那就是保衛國家。這非常強烈,因為我哥哥對他的國家有著極其敏銳的責任感。但是你知道,責任感有點沒來由。那種[不可理解]需要希望才能承擔,成功才能堅持,你看。

我的兄弟一直是一個極端的人,我怎麼說,固定的,堅定地走這條為國家服務的道路。事實上,他不僅要離開曼德林,而且要離開所有的 vousvouyains,如果你願意的話,以便能夠……追隨他拯救國家的使命,這意味著要重新掌權,他仍然是一名公務員,一個在政府之外為人民服務的公僕,一個在政府中任職的官員,他有,重新掌權對他來說是一個期待已久的事件,終於能夠有所作為。

所以這就是為什麼他感覺很少,他過著隱士的生活,但無論如何,我怎麼說,非常及時,非常開放,如果你願意的話,對正在發生的事情完全了解,在人心。人們的反應,他們如何對此採取行動,他們將如何採取行動,我認為這是一個重要因素,這對他有很大幫助,使他能夠在很短的時間內完成他所做的事情必須全心全意為人民服務。

我的弟弟 Nhu 也開始進入神學院,想成為一名神父。他曾經……他為實現自己的聖召而戰鬥,但他的教會上司總是拒絕。這就是他回歸平民生活的方式,如果我可以說,是俗人的生活。我的兄弟 Nhu 是一個非常有教養的人,在這個意義上非常有智慧,善於分析,非常深刻。但是,如果你願意的話,他有那種厭倦的感覺。不是玩世不恭,而是一種,怎麼說呢,粗俗的感覺。我們經歷了一些與人有關的事情,他從來沒有感到非常驚訝,當他看到人們的弱點或錯誤時,他會變得義憤填膺。這對他不利。不好是因為他對人的選擇不那麼嚴謹,而且對人的要求也不高。

我的哥哥 Can 是一個偉大的獨創者,他總是拒絕學習,這真的……激起了家人的憤慨。沒有人明白。但最後你知道越南家庭對孩子的教育和指導的痴迷。在我們這樣的家庭中,恰恰是這些感受遠非沒有,我的兄弟 Can,當[無法理解]。

所以這也是一個事實,因為我在八歲時失去了我的父親,如果你願意的話,他幫了一點忙,作為一個哥哥,他在宗教機構服務。真的,他的統治有點鬆散。好的。

好吧,他在這方面非常有獨創性;他自己發展出一種與我哥哥吳庭艷不同的本能;但同樣的本能使他很好地理解人,這很奇怪,對他來說當然是令人心碎的是,他為佛教徒做了這麼多,知道那裡有一個可能性,一個容易受到影響的水庫,考慮到他們的信仰,並考慮到他們看到自己的信仰受到共產主義者威脅的感受。所以這裡有一個很可能形成阻力的蓄水池。

Ngo Dinh Luyen:

是的,我的哥哥 Can 非常非常親民。他本能地知道思想是如何演變的,人們的反應,他自己的反應,他也真正知道如何通過與人民的密切接觸來組織群眾運動。我認為他所有的花招都涉及利用佛教徒作為對我弟弟吳庭艷政府施壓的手段,這讓他很傷心,因為他為佛教徒做了很多——他在經濟上幫助了他們,但他和我的兄弟吳庭艷總統一直在為他們提供建議,

現在任何人都可以說他們是佛教僧侶。衣食足矣,剃頭鬚眉,穿袍服。在這些情況下,您不僅會冒著被共產黨人滲透的風險,而且對我們和宗教來說更嚴重的是,任何騙子都可能冒充和尚並使民眾感到震驚,您會怎麼想呢?

因此,有必要嘗試組織一門宗教學習課程,就像我們天主教徒所做的那樣,以便人們可以進入神學院。為什麼不像我們為我們的牧師所做的那樣組織這些類型的考試和任命呢?

正是因為如此,佛教徒才開始這樣做,因為直到此時,即使是真正的佛教徒,他們也並不都知道寶塔是絕對自治的,一個與另一個分開,一座寶塔中發生的一切都不是修為鄰塔。正是這一點讓佛教得以重組,不幸的是,它恰好成為美國政治體系想要推翻我兄弟政府時使用的工具。

系列說明

這個由 13 部分組成的系列涵蓋了越南的歷史,從法國的殖民控製到 1945 年的革命,再到 1975 年美國從西貢撤離以及之後的歲月。該系列的客觀方法允許觀眾對戰爭形成自己的結論。101——戰爭的根源——儘管美國情報官員與共產黨領導人胡志明在二戰動蕩的最後幾個月保持著友好關係,但法國和英國對越南革命的敵意為新戰爭奠定了基礎。102——第一次越南戰爭(1946-1954 年)——法國將軍們本以為可以輕鬆擊敗胡志明的烏合之眾的越盟游擊隊,但經過八年的戰鬥和美國 25 億美元的援助,法國人在奠邊府輸掉了一場關鍵的戰鬥—— - 以及他們的亞洲帝國。103--美國' s Mandarin (1954-1963)——為了阻止共產主義在東南亞的傳播,美國在南越取代了法國——支持獨裁總統吳庭艷,直到他手下的將軍們在政變中反對他,這場政變給西貢帶來了政治混亂。104--LBJ 開戰(1964-1965)--隨著胡志明決心重新統一越南,林登貝恩斯約翰遜決心阻止它,南越瀕臨崩潰,為未宣布的大規模升級做好了準備越南戰爭。105——美國掌權(1965-1967)——在兩年的時間裡,約翰遜政府的軍隊集結派遣了 150 萬美國人去越南打一場他們認為令人費解、乏味、令人興奮、致命且令人難忘的戰爭。106——美國的敵人(1954-1967)——從不同的角度看越南戰爭:越共游擊隊和同情者;北越領導人;按級別和檔案;並被美國人關押在河內。107--Tet(1968)--農曆新年期間敵人的大規模攻勢摧毀了越共,未能推翻西貢政府,但導緻美國開始撤軍。108——越南戰爭(1968-1973)——尼克松總統的撤軍計劃、加強轟炸和向西貢運送大量武器改變了戰爭,讓美國士兵想知道他們中的誰會是最後一個死去的人越南。109——柬埔寨和老撾——儘管在技術上保持中立,但越南的兩個較小的鄰國都被捲入了戰爭,遭受了大規模的轟炸,而柬埔寨則經歷了一場噩夢般的戰後大屠殺。110--Peace is at Hand (1968-1973)--當美國和越南繼續交戰時,在經過四年多的時間達成協議後,巴黎的外交官們爭論是否要實現和平,而該協議被證明是進一步流血的前奏。111--Homefront USA--美國人在國內對一場遙遠的戰爭產生分歧,在街頭髮生衝突,示威導致流血、痛苦和對結果的越來越多的懷疑。112--隧道的盡頭(1973-1975)--經過多年的爭議和暴力,美國傷亡不斷增加,勝利仍然遙遙無期,美國輿論從普遍贊成越南戰爭轉變為普遍不滿。113——遺產——越南在蘇聯的軌道上,比以往任何時候都貧窮,在兩條戰線上交戰;美國的遺產包括超過 50 萬亞洲難民、50 萬越南退伍軍人和一些不會消失的問題。系列發行日期:9/1983 經過四年多達成的協議被證明是進一步流血的前奏。111--Homefront USA--美國人在國內對一場遙遠的戰爭產生分歧,在街頭髮生衝突,示威導致流血、痛苦和對結果的越來越多的懷疑。112--隧道的盡頭(1973-1975)--經過多年的爭議和暴力,美國傷亡不斷增加,勝利仍然遙遙無期,美國輿論從普遍贊成越南戰爭轉變為普遍不滿。113——遺產——越南在蘇聯的軌道上,比以往任何時候都貧窮,在兩條戰線上交戰;美國的遺產包括超過 50 萬亞洲難民、50 萬越南退伍軍人和一些不會消失的問題。系列發行日期:9/1983 經過四年多達成的協議被證明是進一步流血的前奏。111--Homefront USA--美國人在國內對一場遙遠的戰爭產生分歧,在街頭髮生衝突,示威導致流血、痛苦和對結果的越來越多的懷疑。112--隧道的盡頭(1973-1975)--經過多年的爭議和暴力,美國傷亡不斷增加,勝利仍然遙遙無期,美國輿論從普遍贊成越南戰爭轉變為普遍不滿。113——遺產——越南在蘇聯的軌道上,比以往任何時候都貧窮,在兩條戰線上交戰;美國的遺產包括超過 50 萬亞洲難民、50 萬越南退伍軍人和一些不會消失的問題。系列發行日期:9/1983 111--Homefront USA--美國人在國內對一場遙遠的戰爭產生分歧,在街頭髮生衝突,示威導致流血、痛苦和對結果的越來越多的懷疑。112--隧道的盡頭(1973-1975)--經過多年的爭議和暴力,美國傷亡不斷增加,勝利仍然遙遙無期,美國輿論從普遍贊成越南戰爭轉變為普遍不滿。113——遺產——越南在蘇聯的軌道上,比以往任何時候都貧窮,在兩條戰線上交戰;美國的遺產包括超過 50 萬亞洲難民、50 萬越南退伍軍人和一些不會消失的問題。系列發行日期:9/1983 111--Homefront USA--美國人在國內對一場遙遠的戰爭產生分歧,在街頭髮生衝突,示威導致流血、痛苦和對結果的越來越多的懷疑。112--隧道的盡頭(1973-1975)--經過多年的爭議和暴力,美國傷亡不斷增加,勝利仍然遙遙無期,美國輿論從普遍贊成越南戰爭轉變為普遍不滿。113——遺產——越南在蘇聯的軌道上,比以往任何時候都貧窮,在兩條戰線上交戰;美國的遺產包括超過 50 萬亞洲難民、50 萬越南退伍軍人和一些不會消失的問題。系列發行日期:9/1983 112--隧道的盡頭(1973-1975)--經過多年的爭議和暴力,美國傷亡不斷增加,勝利仍然遙遙無期,美國輿論從普遍贊成越南戰爭轉變為普遍不滿。113——遺產——越南在蘇聯的軌道上,比以往任何時候都貧窮,在兩條戰線上交戰;美國的遺產包括超過 50 萬亞洲難民、50 萬越南退伍軍人和一些不會消失的問題。系列發行日期:9/1983 112--隧道的盡頭(1973-1975)--經過多年的爭議和暴力,美國傷亡不斷增加,勝利仍然遙遙無期,美國輿論從普遍贊成越南戰爭轉變為普遍不滿。113——遺產——越南在蘇聯的軌道上,比以往任何時候都貧窮,在兩條戰線上交戰;美國的遺產包括超過 50 萬亞洲難民、50 萬越南退伍軍人和一些不會消失的問題。系列發行日期:9/1983 五十萬越南退伍軍人和一些不會消失的問題。系列發行日期:9/1983 五十萬越南退伍軍人和一些不會消失的問題。系列發行日期:9/1983


程序說明

為了阻止共產主義在東南亞的蔓延,美國在南越取代了法國——支持專制總統吳庭艷,直到他手下的將軍們在一場給西貢帶來政治混亂的政變中轉而反對他。


期間

00:48:50


資產類型

原始視頻


媒體類型

視頻


科目

越南戰爭,1961-1975——個人敘述,越南人

越南--歷史--1945-1975

越南戰爭,1961-1975

軍事訓練

越南(共和國)——歷史——政變,1963 年

美國--歷史--1945-

國際發展問題

將軍

黑幫

越南——政治與政府

腐敗

總裁——家人

越南(民主共和國)

越南(共和國)

政治腐敗

難民--越南

美國——政治與政府

首相——暗殺

士氣

流派

記錄

話題

戰爭與衝突

創作者

埃里森·理查德(系列製作人)

Contributors

Ngo, Dinh Luyen (Interviewee)

Publication Information

WGBH Educational Foundation

Rights Summary

No materials may be re-used without references to appearance releases and WGBH/UMass Boston contract. 2) It is the liability of a production to investigate and re-clear all rights before re-use in any project. Rights Holder: WGBH Educational Foundation


Citation

Chicago: “Vietnam: A Television History; America's Mandarin (1954 - 1963); Interview with Ngo Dinh Luyen,” 01/31/1979, GBH Archives, accessed January 1, 2023, http://openvault.wgbh.org/catalog/V_FF5BADFE44A0417BAA2F1F9C6F206209.

MLA: “Vietnam: A Television History; America's Mandarin (1954 - 1963); Interview with Ngo Dinh Luyen.” 01/31/1979. GBH Archives. Web. January 1, 2023. <http://openvault.wgbh.org/catalog/V_FF5BADFE44A0417BAA2F1F9C6F206209>.

APA: Vietnam: A Television History; America's Mandarin (1954 - 1963); Interview with Ngo Dinh Luyen. Boston, MA: GBH Archives. Retrieved from http://openvault.wgbh.org/catalog/V_FF5BADFE44A0417BAA2F1F9C6F206209

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GBH Openvault

Vietnam: A Television History; America's Mandarin (1954 - 1963); Interview with Ngo Dinh Luyen

Part of The Vietnam Collection.

01/31/1979

Brother of Ngo Dinh Diem, Ngo Dinh Luyen was appointed ambassador to the United Kingdom. Ngo Dinh Luyen recounts why Bao Dai chose Ngo Dinh Diem to be the first president of South Vietnam. Ngo Dinh Luyen describes the panic in South Vietnam around August 1954 due to the advancing Communist forces. He talks about United States politics in regards to Vietnam, and that while it was driven by good intentions, in the beginning, the United States did not do anything different from the French. Ngo Dinh Luyen also talks about the 1963 coup and that he does not know who was responsible but suggests that it may have been helped by the Americans.


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Series
Vietnam: A Television History
Program
America's Mandarin (1954 - 1963)
Program Number

103

Title

Interview with Ngo Dinh Luyen

Interviewer:
Mr. Luyen, the first question is the issue of why Bao Dai chose your brother and how he chose him.
Ngo Dinh Luyen:
Yes, to answer, there are several...One must remember several events in order to make the answer intelligible. Good. You have to know that Bao Dai needed someone with authority. Bao Dai no longer conferred authority, right. What Vietnam in that era needed, right, was someone with authority over Vietnam, over the Vietnamese people.
Well, the...in all the countries once colonized by the French, the French policy, (because France desired assimilation), started out with very liberal ideas, if you like, right, eh? But that resulted in this, which is that in no country dominated, protected, or colonized by France were there any personalities who came forth susceptible to...prepared, if you like, under circumstances which permitted that his influence could extend over...over his people, over the nation...over the country itself. Right. Their own country. So as a result, right, it's the situation at the time [inaudible].
One of the reasons why Bao Dai chose my brother is that my brother came from exceptional circumstances. This meant that very young, right, at thirty-two, he was known in Vietnam on a national scale. An extremely favorable situation because he was known by one of the commissions [inaudible], right, because he'd obtained a very important position in Vietnam. And it's this fact, right, along with the fact that my family was always very established, if you like; my father had already resigned because they'd dethroned Emperor Thanh Thai, right.
And, if you like, after that, one of his sons – still very young and already having achieved, if you like, the peak of his career – resigned after six months, right. That's it. It's this circumstance which determined that my brother's authority was discovered suddenly, if you like, and his influence was created suddenly on a national scale, if you like. All the Vietnamese were quite struck with this extraordinary situation, right: a young man who had renounced everything. And so, that's what made Bao Dai, right, chose to put him back in Vietnam, which he didn't want to come back to.
He left...he left for Europe in '52, '53, right, and he didn't want to come back to Vietnam. Right. So he didn't want either to leave all of his potential interests: his throne, his dynasty, and everything, right? As a result, he would have wished to have an advantageous replacement. Right. Good. He could have named anyone else, but nobody else would have had the authority to do anything, because the little authority they would have had...[inaudible.] Bao Dai hadn't any more; he'd lost all authority. So, it's this that made, if you like, right, Bao Dai chose my brother. To replace him, right. And to hold the place for him in some way.
Because I am, I was in the middle of Bao Dai's maneuvers. Because in fact he had not only chosen my brother, right, but because he had resigned right at the beginning of Bao Dai's effective reign in Vietnam. Relations, he knew, weren't very good between himself and my brother. Right? So it was necessary that someone was a go-between to find because I had been sent to France when I was only twelve, right, and by chance I had...The person who took care of me in France was also his tutor, the person who took care of him, who took care of Bao Dai, who directed, if you like, his studies, his life. It was the old tutor General Charles, right, from Indochina. Good.
Which made that, good, because he was nine months older than I, at twelve years, you see it's an age where in spite of everything one's still relaxed, very young, completely direct. And so, we spent several years like that together during vacations, and this made pretty strong ties between him and me, right. And so it's this childhood friendship that determined his coming to me to try to make my brother, if you like, accept. And so...to...the...position of Prime Minister, and to replace him in Vietnam.
Interviewer:
Cut. It's too long.
Interviewer:
We're asking why Bao Dai chose your brother and how he chose him.
Ngo Dinh Luyen:
Bao Dai chose my brother because he found that my brother, not only because of his personal merit perhaps, but also because of circumstances which meant that he'd become known, right, on a national level. While no other personality in Vietnam had had that luck. So.
And my brother...because my brother, who was called to the highest ranks of Vietnamese government at the age of only thirty-two, right, had resigned after six months, right, which was....good. Now, Bao Dai made his choice, but when things were really arranged, if you like, contact was made between him and Bao Dai in '53 and '54, right. Bao Dai used me, right, because we had been children together in France, and we'd spent several holidays together because his tutor was also mine. He took care of me, too.
So it was through me that Bao Dai sought to take up contact with my brother again, because the resignation of my brother had created somewhat strained relations between them. And it was this way that things were arranged, right, at the end of '53, beginning of '54.
Interviewer:
We won't cut anytime.
Ngo Dinh Luyen:
Are you going to ask the question again? No?
Interviewer:
No.
Ngo Dinh Luyen:
The easiest way to tell you about the situation in Vietnam is perhaps to tell you my impressions of the first time I cam back to Vietnam, right. It was the end of August 1954. Therefore, one and a half months after my brother had come back to power I arrived in Saigon to find that my brother couldn't count on his civil administration because everybody was so panicked, completely convinced that the end was near, that the advance, the conquest of the Communists would be soon.
So that the administrators had no intention of working, and everybody tried to figure out how they were going to escape from this hornet's nest. From the military perspective it was very simple: the army was under orders from a general of French nationality who was in open rebellion. The first night I spent in Saigon in his palace, and this was a common occurrence, but the first time I'd heard it...The whole night, command cars and machine-gun carriers and army, armored cars drove around the palace of the government at the same time with megaphones as well as on the army radio station broadcasting a campaign, and all the anti-government slogans.
So the army was rebelling openly, not only openly but ostentatiously, you see, good. What am I saying? We didn't have a penny. The treasury was empty and several months later when France reopened the exchange office – that's to say, foreign exchange – the foreign currency belonging to countries, the balance sheet wasn't just zero, it wasn't even positive because there was a hole of several billion francs in foreign currency from the French administration...
Ngo Dinh Luyen:
And it was at this moment too that the refugees were being rehabilitated – I mean reinstalled; because we didn't have guaranteed security to install them in virgin territory. So at the same time, in the Saigon-Cholon region, about 100,000 refugees were being temporarily put in uninhabited areas further out, but still in the Saigon suburbs.
And all these people were there...Then they couldn't work, they didn't have land to cultivate, and so it was this mixture of people searching among themselves to try to find their friends, which made such a confusion, which certainly didn't help the morale, if you lie, of Saigon's citizens. Everybody was in this kind of anarchy, fear, worry, and naturally with the army's open rebellion, all these radios, these megaphones everywhere in the city that the army, critics of the army, opposition to the arm, to the head of the government – none of this helped the situation.
Ngo Dinh Luyen:
Here's a fairly amusing example, or several: I remember when my brother was giving a reception for the new ICC following the Geneva agreement. And General Hinh, the rebel general, was invited. And at the moment when he was introduced I still remember the Indian General's face when they said, "My dear general, let me introduce our rebel general." It's Hinh. It's fairly funny, right. Surprising, but at the same time noting out of the ordinary because everybody knew it. It's just that I made the introduction.
I'll give another example that will show not only the chaos but the difficulty my brother had to find a way not to worsen the disorder. Because before the rebellion of their commander, the chef d'état, Major General Hinh, the Vietnamese officers under his command started a rebellion against him. And I remember that there was a battalion which left for the underground, proclaiming that they were rebelling not against their commander, but to support their government. Well, it's a strange thing.
So my brother had to ask me, because it was an officer I knew personally from when he came to officers' school in France – at that time, he was called Commander Huynh. So, knowing me, my brother said, "Go to his hideout and tell him to surrender to Hinh," because he had to give an example. Since it wasn't the superiors giving an example to their subordinates, but the subordinates who had to make an example for their general to surrender.
Ngo Dinh Luyen:
So my brother told me that I absolutely had to go, "first, because you have the time and I don't, and then second, you know him and somebody has to go." So I went to find the Commander Huynh. It was epic, because he couldn't understand – and I can see why – how the President for whom, because of whom, in support of whom, he'd rebelled. And it was this president who was now asking him to surrender! But you can see things weren't so simple.
In any case, that gave an idea, if you like, of the absolutely universal conviction that Vietnam was lost. He could even say that my own "vennu" [incomprehensible] who everyone knew how much of a patriot and anti-communist, and all that one would want, and so even he thought it was lost. And so it was when he learned that my brother had accepted Bao Dai's offer of the delegation, with full civilian power, to come back to the country.
My brother had written, right, that Confucian belief, right, from a younger brother to an older brother; wrote him in very harsh terms that that was the last thing to do. Since his convictions not only all the people of Vietnam but all the governments involved – whether the French government, the American government, etc. were absolutely convinced, and I think even that it's thanks to these general convictions that things were, couldn't get any worse. It's thanks to this that my brother was able to turn the situation around.
Ngo Dinh Luyen:
So on one side we had the army that was in open rebellion, and on the other side the police were in the hands of pirates. It's very simple, the Binh Xuyen, right. So the Binh Xuyen then had made a whole district of brothels, in the Saigon area. It's really extravagant.
I still can't understand why Bao Dai put up with the Binh Xuyen and gave them the city police, not only that – first the French government, and then the American government not only wouldn't let us do anything to take police rights away from these Binh Xuyen pirates, but to the contrary, we gave their head, Bay Vien, the post of Minister of the Interior. It's incredible. It's as if in the US somebody asked the White House to name Al Capone chief of all the police, even Minister of the Interior, then gave his lieutenants the responsibility for order and security not just in Chicago but in every American city. It's on that order.
And still, these things were accomplished not just through discussion, but in writing. Well, I remember one day my brother really enjoyed getting advice from different people on all kinds of issues. So he was...I was in his office, and he was talking about relationships when all of a sudden he said to me, "You've go to go, because I have to meet with the Good Sisters." I didn't understand. I know well, he's a charitable man, he's a good Christian, but after all, receiving nuns, that's completely unheard of. And I asked him why. He said, "No, it's France's High Commissioner, General Ely, the US Ambassador General Collins.
I said, why did you call them the Good Sisters? "Well, it's obvious. All they do, both of them, is push Bay Vien for Minister of the Interior. And to show that they're completely in agreement, the French and Americans not only write me identical texts – one in French, one in English – but they come afterward to give me verbal confirmation, not one after the other, but together, like our nuns, who never go out except in Paris; and that's astonishing, but I call them the Good Sisters." That's the situation, see, it's funny – politics in Vietnam.
Ngo Dinh Luyen:
Politics in the US has changed, has evolved with the changing opinions of the US concerning the viability of Vietnam and my brother's regime. In the beginning, like everybody, the Americans thought that the situation in Vietnam had no future; it was over. And as a result relations with the Vietnamese government, although driven by good intentions.
The US, as we've seen, followed exactly the same political route as France, see, the story of the Good Sisters. And American aid consisted for the most part of humanitarian assistance – a kind of remorse, of sympathy, saying, "these poor people, we can't do anything for them." Finally, it was unfortunate.
The situation was too bad and it explains why, see, that only the French had a certain political way. They didn't want to disturb this politics because they saw no future in doing things differently. Following the defeat, the crushing of the religious sects, everyone who participated in this kind of tribalism organized by the French system, at that point the defeat was already resounding.
The US had begun to charge their point of view without even saying maybe, and that there was a little big hope, and in conditions like that maybe we could help, and actually we had helped by commercial aid in having missions of experts for our administrations, the police, administrative organizations for the country. So they would send by Michigan State, which we gratefully accepted, lots of experts. Finally from a military point of view...
Ngo Dinh Luyen:
And then success naturally accentuated American collaboration, more and more aid – administrative, military, and lots of advisors, more and more experts came to Vietnam. The hard part was not so much in the commonly-held point of view – everybody wanted to extricate Vietnam, to assist them against communist control. Only the difficulty for an aide, in fact, that American saw more the...from the military point of view, they saw primarily the importance of ornaments, the way to use them, while for the Vietnamese, we concentrated more on what could motivate the person using the rifle.
Naturally we were absolutely persuaded the Americans were right to teach our men how to use their weapons, but when this use of weapons resulted in battle formations and combat methods that had less and less rapport with the conditions of guerrilla war, then that started the first difficulties, the first disagreements.
From another side, from the civil point of view, from the citizen's standpoint, the Americans thought that the best way to build the people's morale was to bring...was to make as they said, a window, like a store window, thousands of enormous purchases and better stocked, much more seductive, and the people would have reasons, many reasons to want to live. So do what we do. It was sort of to give people really not a death wish, but the desire to risk their lives, and that was the price if they wanted to free the country from communism.
It was in this way that [inaudible]...As always, it was given that it was necessary to have a justification for the American aide, and that the Americans saw the justification in employing the heads of the counterparts in commercial aide, which is to say currency which brought a return, they didn't let this currency go, they didn't release the goods until they themselves were persuaded. So it was necessary that all our programs, any action involved a bigger and bigger proportion, if you wish, of what the Americans thought was indispensable.
And it was this, I think, this was the [incomprehensible] of success, as much because one mis-estimated the importance, one ignored the possible efficiency. We had much freer hands on the day when hope came to the Americans that the future wasn't so black. From that moment the Americans became increasingly interested; they applied their own visions, if you like, as to how to regain the country, how to regain opinion. And the examples, if you like, it's for example...
Ngo Dinh Luyen:
No, no examples, because that...
Ngo Dinh Luyen:
Yes, but finally we had some contacts with the communist authorities in the north. Naturally, we kept it a secret so as not to have a detrimental effect on the morale of our troops because who wanted to be the last one killed, right, before an armistice. And if we had tried to advertise it, naturally no one would have wanted to fight. So nobody would've been able to fight with the same spirit.
But it is very clear that when one wages war, it's because on seeks peace, and when one wages war to obtain peace, it's necessary that at all times during that war one have the best contacts, I mean, the most certain contacts with the enemy. That's the way to be because a war, like a peace is the result of what? Of dissatisfaction or of satisfaction, more or less acceptable, of desiderata on each side.
It's necessary to have these contacts so that on one side as in the other, one understands better what level the other considers reasonable. It's only in this way that one can arrive at a peace. I don't understand how people could have the illusion that two armies or two coalitions of armies could fight, while refusing any contact with their adversary, without wanting war for war's sake, because that's the only way to be in a war that never ends, to refuse to have contact with you adversary.
And of course we're talking not only about knowing but about not letting him know what are your reciprocal positions, one from another, and therefore, the politics of the two bodies to try to see at which moment an equilibrium of mutual satisfactions or of dissatisfactions might be obtained, and it's at this moment only that the peace process can start.
Interviewer:
So what was the position of the North at this time?
Ngo Dinh Luyen:
I wasn't precisely tuned in to the progress, if you like, of the negotiators but it's perfect that these two sides had started already to estimate the position of the other, the others. The Communists were sure that the worm in our fruit was the Americans, and as a result they'd investigated [incomprehensible], but that's a declaration [incomprehensible], not only because without the Americans we would've been less strong, certainly they didn't forget that point.
But I think there was something real, if you like, in this kind of visceral fear, if you like, right. That a presence close to the friendship of the Americans with us could represent terrible things to them. And you had to try to make them understand the other side too, that what we feared were their methods and it was the effect that it could have on the life of our people and on the future of our nation that communism, with all its international applications from one side as from the other.
So there was a certain common way in, if you like, the search for a Vietnamization quite unlike that offered by Mr. Nixon, but in the sense of, little by little, the two sides, if foreign influence could have diminished without touching the resistance force.
Interviewer:
Who was responsible for the coup?
Ngo Dinh Luyen:
It's not possible to give a name, first because I wasn't there, and even being there, it would've been very difficult to pick out individual responsibility. One thing's for sure, that's that everything that was done by means furnished by America and its government. And it's quite evident that if the real generals had had in themselves the strength, the capacity themselves without the real possibility of the US being implicated, they would have made much better figures afterwards, which is to say, if they'd had the power to overturn the government [incomprehensible] not a [incomprehensible] massacre.
There would have been at least a minimum of cohesion and power for what was to come. Except what did we see? We saw every mouth, one general after another rise and fall like puppets, right, good. It's the proof that there was no autonomy, if you like. The Americans who were the source of the coup, of force, of the execution, because if they were capable of making...of overthrowing a government, they would at least have been capable of supporting it between them, because the primary force, it's cohesion, but if we're talking about just several generals.
But these generals have enough cohesion, a minimum to demolish a going government. And then they are unable to maintain the least cohesion. [incomprehensible] but to last in a government. I'm not talking about creating anything particular, but simply existing. In fact, they were incapable of blowing their own noses. Therefore, they had nothing.
Ngo Dinh Luyen:
My family, family education. It's a mixture. My family, on the one hand, was attracted by the idea of social order, Confucianism – we were Confucian. At the same time, we were Catholics because we were drawn by this idea of justice, equality of everyone, if you like and it seemed a pretty astonishing mixture, but in fact it seemed pretty satisfactory to us, one counterbalancing the other. And it's in this atmosphere that we were raised.
My older brother Khoi and his only son were buried alive by the Communists in September, '45. Then my brother, Thuc, who later became bishop, archbishop, got the religious vocation very young. He left his family at about eight years old, to enter the little seminary and then he studied in Rome, etc. Good. He completely retreated from any political idea, he wouldn't let himself think about it. It's too bad, but that's the way it was. So he didn't play, participate in any role, if you like, right, in Vietnamese politics in the years '54 to '63 which absorbed the rest of the family.
My brother Diem, when he was very young, wanted to go into religion also, but that didn't last too long because he felt in himself some other thing, very strong, that prevented him from completely bending to a discipline, to the religious discipline. Because he had another kind of vocation, which was to secure his country. And it's pretty strong because my brother had an extremely acute sense of duty in relation to his country. But you know, the sense of duty is a little gratuitous. The kind [incomprehensible] needs to hope in order to undertake, and succeed in order to persevere, you see.
My brother was always someone extremely, how do I say, fixé, determined on this path of service for the country. And the fact that he had to leave not only the manderinship but all the vousvouyains, if you like, to be able...to follow his vocation of saving his country, meant that to come back to power, he stayed a kind of functionary, a servant of the people outside of the administration, a functionary placed in the administration and he had, and for him to return to power was a long-awaited event, to finally be able to do something.
So it's that which explains why he who felt very little, he lived the life of a hermit, but was nevertheless, how do I say, very up to date, very open, exactly to what was going on, if you like, in the hearts of the people. The reactions of the people, how they could act to this, how they'll act to that, and I think that that was an important factor which helped him a lot to be able to do what he did in the small amount of time he had to devote to the service of the people.
My brother Nhu also started to enter the seminary and wanted to be a priest. And he had...he fought extremely had to realize his vocation, but his ecclesiastical superiors always refused. That was how he came back into civilian life, if I can say, lay life. My brother Nhu was a very cultivated man, very intellectual in that sense, analytical, very profound. But he had, if you like, that kind of blasé feeling. Not cynicism, but a kind of, how do I put it, coarse feeling. We came through a certain number of things concerning people, and he was never astonished very much, he ever became indignant when he saw weaknesses or errors in people. And it served him badly. It wasn't good because he was less rigorous in the choice of people, while not expecting very much from people.
My brother Can was a great original in the sense that he always refused to study, which was really...it provoked indignation in the family. Nobody understood. But finally you know the obsession Vietnamese families have with education, instruction for their children. In a family like ours, where precisely these feelings were far from absent, well my brother Can, when [incomprehensible].
And so it's a fact also that as I'd lost my father at the age of eight, he helped a little bit, if you like, and as an older brother, was in the service of religious institutions. Really he had the reigns a little loose. Good.
Well, he was extremely original in this way; he developed a sort of instinct himself different from my brother Diem; but an instinct equally that made him understand people well, which is very curious, and certainly a heartbreak for him which is that he, who did so much for the Buddhists, knowing that there was there the possibility, a reservoir, that was susceptible, given their beliefs and given their feelings of seeing their beliefs threatened by the communists. So there was there a reservoir very likely to form resistance.
Ngo Dinh Luyen:
Yes, my brother Can was very, very close to the people. He instinctively knew how thinking evolves, men’s reactions, his own also, and he also really knew how to organize mass movements as a result of his intimate contact with the people. And I think that all his maneuvers which involved using the Buddhists as a means of pressure against my brother Diem’s government, that created a lot of heartbreak for him because he had done a lot for the Buddhists – he had helped them financially, but it was he and my brother Diem, the President, who did not cease from advising them, aiding them financially and advising their advisors to say to the Buddhist, "Try to do something to reorganize your religion."
Anyone can say now they are a Buddhist monk. It is sufficient to wear, to shave your skull and eyebrows and to wear a robe. How would you like it that in these situations you risk not only penetration by the Commmunists, but what is much more serious for us and for the religion would be that any crook could pass for a bonze and scandalize the population.
It is therefore necessary to try to organize a course of religious study, as we do, we the Catholics, so that one can enter the seminaries. Why not organize these sorts of exams and ordinations as we do for our priests?
And it is because of that that the Buddhists started this, because up until this point, even for the authentic Buddhists they did not all know that the pagodas were absolutely autonomous, separated one from the other, and everything that happened in one pagoda was not the practice for the neighboring pagoda. It was this which allowed Buddhism to restructure itself and to unfortunately become exactly the tool which the American political system used when they wanted to bring down the administration of my brother.
Series Description

This 13 part series covers the history of Vietnam from France's colonial control, through the 1945 revolution, to the 1975 U.S. evacuation from Saigon and the years beyond. The series' objective approach permits viewers to form their own conclusions about the war. 101--Roots of a War--Despite cordial relations between American intelligence officers and Communist leader Ho Chi Minh in the turbulent closing months of World War II, French and British hostility to the Vietnamese revolution laid the groundwork for a new war. 102--The First Vietnam War (1946-1954)--The French generals expected to defeat Ho's rag-tag Vietminh guerrillas easily, but after eight years of fighting and $2.5 billion in U.S. aid, the French lost a crucial battle at Dienbienphu--and with it, their Asian empire. 103--America's Mandarin (1954-1963)--To stop the spread of communism in Southeast Asia, America replaced France in South Vietnam--supporting autocratic President Ngo Dinyh Diem until his own generals turned against him in a coup that brought political chaos to Saigon. 104--LBJ Goes to War (1964-1965)--With Ho Chi Minh determined to reunite Vietnam, Lyndon Baines Johnson determined to prevent it, and South Vietnam on the verge of collapse, the stage was set for massive escalation of the undeclared Vietnam War. 105--America Takes Charge (1965-1967)--In two years, the Johnson Administration's troop build-up dispatched 1.5 million Americans to Vietnam to fight a war they found baffling, tedious, exciting, deadly and unforgettable. 106--America's Enemy (1954-1967)--The Vietnam War as seen from different perspectives: by Vietcong guerrillas and sympathizers; by North Vietnamese leaders; by rank and file; and by American held prisoner in Hanoi. 107--Tet (1968)--The massive enemy offensive at the Lunar New Year decimated the Vietcong and failed to topple the Saigon government, but led to the beginning of America's military withdrawal. 108--Vietnamizing the War (1968-1973)--President Nixon's program of troop pull-outs, stepped-up bombing and huge arms shipments to Saigon changed the war, and left GI's wondering which of them would be the last to die in Vietnam. 109--Cambodia and Laos--Despite technical neutrality, both of Vietnam's smaller neighbors were drawn into the war, suffered massive bombing, and in the case of Cambodia, endured a post-war holocaust of nightmare proportions. 110--Peace is at Hand (1968-1973)--While American and Vietnamese continued to clash in battle, diplomats in Paris argued about making peace, after more than four years reaching an accord that proved to be a preface to further bloodshed. 111--Homefront USA--Americans at home divide over a distant war, clashing in the streets as demonstrations lead to bloodshed, bitterness and increasing doubts about the outcome. 112--The End of the Tunnel (1973-1975)--Through troubled years of controversy and violence, U.S. casualties mounted, victory remained elusive and American opinion moved from general approval to general dissatisfaction with the Vietnam war. 113--Legacies--Vietnam is in the Soviet orbit, poorer than ever, at war on two fronts; America's legacy includes more than one half million Asian refugees, one half million Vietnam veterans and some questions that won't go away. Series release date: 9/1983

Program Description

To stop the spread of communism in Southeast Asia, America replaced France in South Vietnam--supporting autocratic President Ngo Dinyh Diem until his own generals turned against him in a coup that brought political chaos to Saigon.

Duration

00:48:50

Asset Type

Raw video

Media Type

Video

Subjects
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, Vietnamese
Vietnam--History--1945-1975
Vietnam War, 1961-1975
Military training
Vietnam (Republic)--History--Coup d'etat, 1963
United States--History--1945-
International development issues
Generals
Gangs
Vietnam--Politics and government
Corruption
Presidents--Family
Vietnam (Democratic Republic)
Vietnam (Republic)
Political corruption
Refugees--Vietnam
United States--Politics and government
Prime ministers--Assassination
Morale
Genres
Documentary
Topics
War and Conflict
Creators
Ellison, Richard (Series Producer)
Contributors
Ngo, Dinh Luyen (Interviewee)
Publication Information
WGBH Educational Foundation
Rights Summary

No materials may be re-used without references to appearance releases and WGBH/UMass Boston contract. 2) It is the liability of a production to investigate and re-clear all rights before re-use in any project. Rights Holder: WGBH Educational Foundation

Citation
Chicago: “Vietnam: A Television History; America's Mandarin (1954 - 1963); Interview with Ngo Dinh Luyen,” 01/31/1979, GBH Archives, accessed January 1, 2023, http://openvault.wgbh.org/catalog/V_FF5BADFE44A0417BAA2F1F9C6F206209.
MLA: “Vietnam: A Television History; America's Mandarin (1954 - 1963); Interview with Ngo Dinh Luyen.” 01/31/1979. GBH Archives. Web. January 1, 2023. <http://openvault.wgbh.org/catalog/V_FF5BADFE44A0417BAA2F1F9C6F206209>.
APA: Vietnam: A Television History; America's Mandarin (1954 - 1963); Interview with Ngo Dinh Luyen. Boston, MA: GBH Archives. Retrieved from http://openvault.wgbh.org/catalog/V_FF5BADFE44A0417BAA2F1F9C6F206209
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